Curse

samcobra · Jul 05, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

As I was playing the other day, and looking at the pvp character creation screne for ideas of new builds, I realized this:

The new classes in factions, namely, the assassin and the ritualist, lack the overall compatibility with other secondaries that the prophecies classes had.

Let me illustrate the advantages of the older primary attributes with a couple examples:

Example 1: Ranger (Expertise). The global reduction in non-spell skill costs for rangers allowed them to venture beyond their own skills and use others such as warrior skills, necro touch skills, and quite a few others.

Example 2: Mesmer (fast casting). This primary allowed for many spikes to be carries out much faster than if the primary class were used alone. Also, this class's energy management skills are surpassed by none and it is therefore a great secondary for any caster (and dont forget echo)

Examples also exist of great combos utilizing soul reaping, energy storage, etc.

Now, moving on to the factions characters:

The Assassin's primary attribute, critical strikes, seem to be quite useful to start. However, the only effective build i've seen using this is the "critical barrager" Also, the low max damage on daggers makes a critical hit from them about the same as a normal hit from most other weapons. I will acquiesce that the skill Aura of Displacement has incredible value as a movement skill, but due to the ANet nerf of shadowstepping, its potential has also significantly decreased.

Now, I move to the weakest primary attribute, spawning power. While a primary ritualist using spirits gets quite a bit of utility from it, this attribute is quite useless if combined with any other secondary class. Hence, the ritualist can get very little by using any secondary skills. Initially, at the beginning of factions, the idea of the spawning power MM came about, but due to the lack of runes, the ritualist's minions are still weaker than those of a necromancer.
As a secondary, ritualist has very little to offer. The weak weapon buffs are not really worth the investment.

Please, feel free to share your thoughts on this topic, etc.

Dj Tano · Jul 05, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I agree on the point that the new classes dont really fit with any secondary and i agree on the assassin and ritualist thing, but:

You sayd that critical strikes is not even good for daggers because of the low damage but that is wrong. Dealing a critical strike might deal just as much damaeg as a normal hit from a sword, but the whole point is that the daggers are nearly double as fast. That means that if skilled right the assassin can male every 2nd or 3d hit a critical one meaning that in the time that a sword deals his damage, the dagger deals double as much...

Cacheelma · Jul 05, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

....guys, both of the new classes are not the CORE CLASSES for a reason, you know?

Vermilion Okeanos · Jul 05, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I don't have any complain aside for the rather small skill list for Assassin and Ritualist.

samcobra · Jul 05, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

While this may be true, critical strikes would be dealing 17 damage on a set of daggers, which at max critical strikes would be 16% of the time. Compare this with max strength using primal rage (58% critical hits). Also, Primal Rage is Armor Penetrating, increasing effective damage.

Now lets look at some numbers.

In a 10 second period, with max dagger mastery, the effective swing speed of daggers is .99 s. Meaning, you will get 10.1 hits off in 10 seconds. At the +16% critical hits, you will get about 1-2 of these hits being critical hits, meaning 27.5 damage in addition to other base attacks with a general lower range of damage.

Compare to an axe warrior using Primal Rage with max strength. With 16 strength, primal rage gives an additional 58% chance of achieving a CH, plus the 20+16=36% sundering by the skill and the strength attribute. In 10 seconds, the axe user will have gotten 7-8 hits, of which about 4 will be critical hits, resulting in 122 additional damage over the base 13 dps. This will allow for much more damage than the daggers.

The key to daggers has always been and remains their skills which are the most effective dealer of conditions on any melee class. However, this is detractory from the fact that there is still less playable combinations with other classes.

Nexium · Jul 05, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Whern't Rt and Assassin Desigend to fit certain build's that core couldent complete as well as the new classes could?

Yuo Can Do It! · Jul 05, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

What? Their primary skills have almost nothing to do with how versatile they are. The ritualist is one of the most versatile classes in GuildWars right now. There's a difference between a class being versatile and a class being compatible with other classes.

And how can you compare max dagger mastery hits to max strength hits PLUS an elite skill? It's not fair judgement. That's like saying one warrior can do more damage with a stance/shout than the other warrior. Of course they're going to do more damage!

I think you'd want to reword your title.

samcobra · Jul 05, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Okay, so I want a ritualist to fill out my group. So what do I want to to do? Lets try restoration.. nah.. a monk would work better. How about some channeling? Wait, I already ahve an ele. I could try some weapon buffs. Crap, those suck. How about tanking with items? Well, we already ahave a warrior.

now.. I know... lets use a ritual lord spirit spammer.

So far, the majority of group utility of a ritualist has been found to be this ritualist is the spirit spammer.

As far as utility and versatility, the ritualist lacks the effectiveness of combination utility.

AW Lore · Jul 05, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

[QUOTE=samcobra]Okay, so I want a ritualist to fill out my group. So what do I want to to do? Lets try restoration.. nah.. a monk would work better. QUOTE]
alright, will you spend the next two hours looking for a pc?

Quote:

I could try some weapon buffs. Crap, those suck

the fact that you dont know how to use them properly doesnt mean they suck

Jetdoc · Jul 05, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

From the surface, most would believe that the OP's opinion would be true.

However, when you drill down to it, there is a ton of versatility that (1) doesn't fit the cookie-cutter molds that the OP tries to categorize the original classes into and (2) plain just hasn't had the time to develop yet, mainly because of the novelty of the new classes.

#1 above is pretty clear based on the OP's last post - monks are meant to heal, elementalists are meant to spike, and warriors are meant to tank. And the assassin and ritualist aren't as effective as them in doing that.

The problem is that these classes can be used to do MUCH more than that, and in many ways the ritualist, especially combined with one of those core classes, can one up them.

For example, the classic protection monk's bread and butter is Reversal of Fortune. I have found that Vengeful Weapon is often a better skill due to the life stealing damage it provides. I wouldn't be surprised if more Mo/Rt's appear out there for this very reason. But again, that's not fully fleshed out because we're still pretty early in the Ritualist's development.

samcobra · Jul 05, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AW Lore

the fact that you dont know how to use them properly doesnt mean they suck

Lets not turn this into a flaming thread, but here's my contention on weapon buffs. They do not provide enough of an advantage to use them in the stead of something that could be used instead. Take Brutal weapon. Instead of adding to the damage of a tank, and using a weapon buff rit, you could replace the character with something that actually dishes out further individual damage. Furthermore, how many weapon buff rits are used in a team setup?

Again, please keep all opinions and criticisms constructive (ie, explain how to combine different classes, etc instead of saying that they exist but not clarifying)

Demesis · Jul 05, 2006, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcobra

Lets not turn this into a flaming thread, but here's my contention on weapon buffs. They do not provide enough of an advantage to use them in the stead of something that could be used instead. Take Brutal weapon. Instead of adding to the damage of a tank, and using a weapon buff rit, you could replace the character with something that actually dishes out further individual damage. Furthermore, how many weapon buff rits are used in a team setup?

Again, please keep all opinions and criticisms constructive (ie, explain how to combine different classes, etc instead of saying that they exist but not clarifying)

Actually, I think AW Lore's right. Most people who don't like the new classes don't really know how to use them properly.

I know for one thing that my assassin happens to be the more enjoyable PvP character. It can pwn touch rangers and casters (especially monks) faster than warriors can. I had to re-evaluate how useful assassins were after that discovery...

Erasculio · Jul 05, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcobra

The new classes in factions, namely, the assassin and the ritualist, lack the overall compatibility with other secondaries that the prophecies classes had.

The same thing was said, a long time ago, about the Mesmer, the Necromancer and the Ranger.

The same thing will be said about the new Professions introduced with any new chapter.

People lack foresight. People lack hindsight, too, to see that some of the most popular builds today (MM, SS, Barrage Ranger, etc) didn't become common until a few months ago, long after Guild Wars had been released.

In time, people will learn more useful combinations with the Assassin and the Ritualist, cookie cutter builds will be created, and the players of Chapters 1 and 3 will be prejudiced in PUGs because they can't play as a Assassins or Ritualists (oh, the joy).

Quote:

The Assassin's primary attribute, critical strikes, seem to be quite useful to start. However, the only effective build i've seen using this is the "critical barrager" Also, the low max damage on daggers makes a critical hit from them about the same as a normal hit from most other weapons. I will acquiesce that the skill Aura of Displacement has incredible value as a movement skill, but due to the ANet nerf of shadowstepping, its potential has also significantly decreased.

What does Aura of Displacement have to do with Critical Strikes?

Try being an Assassin with, say, Flurry and high Critical Strikes - not only you'll attack more often, but you'll get more energy. Try being an Assassin and using Critical Eye with any Warrior weapon (or just high Critical Strikes anyway), or be an Assassin/Warrior and take "Shields Up!" and other Tatics skills that help with defense. Go Assassin/Ranger to use both Sharpen Daggers and Apply Poison, so each of your criticals inflict both poisoning and bleeding, and add Quickening Zephir to make your (long recharge time) Deadly Arts skills be actually useful.

If you want to go a Ranger/Assassin, go Expertise and some say you'll be more efficient than an Assassin. If you're a Warrior/Assassin, just take some Shadow Stepping skills to deal with runners. If you want to go Ele/Assassin to use the (many) PBAoE spells in Factions, the Shadow Steps also helps a lot to be alive.

Quote:

Now, I move to the weakest primary attribute, spawning power. While a primary ritualist using spirits gets quite a bit of utility from it, this attribute is quite useless if combined with any other secondary class. Hence, the ritualist can get very little by using any secondary skills. Initially, at the beginning of factions, the idea of the spawning power MM came about, but due to the lack of runes, the ritualist's minions are still weaker than those of a necromancer.

Minion Bomber. Between Spawing Power, Boon of Creation, Explosive Growth (and if you need a timer, Signet of Creation), a Ritualist can minion bomb spike better than a Necromancer.

Ranger Spirit spamming, the Ritualist not only has ways to keep these spirits with more health, but also more skills that benefit from these. Go Ritualist/Warrior to benefit from Weapons Spells (that, unlike almost everything else in the game, cannot be removed), etc...

Etc...The list of possible combinations, with good results, goes on as long as one takes the time to think, and not just complain.

Erasculio

Caelus The Fallen · Jul 05, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcobra

While this may be true, critical strikes would be dealing 17 damage on a set of daggers, which at max critical strikes would be 16% of the time. Compare this with max strength using primal rage (58% critical hits). Also, Primal Rage is Armor Penetrating, increasing effective damage.

Now lets look at some numbers.

In a 10 second period, with max dagger mastery, the effective swing speed of daggers is .99 s. Meaning, you will get 10.1 hits off in 10 seconds. At the +16% critical hits, you will get about 1-2 of these hits being critical hits, meaning 27.5 damage in addition to other base attacks with a general lower range of damage.

Compare to an axe warrior using Primal Rage with max strength. With 16 strength, primal rage gives an additional 58% chance of achieving a CH, plus the 20+16=36% sundering by the skill and the strength attribute. In 10 seconds, the axe user will have gotten 7-8 hits, of which about 4 will be critical hits, resulting in 122 additional damage over the base 13 dps. This will allow for much more damage than the daggers.

The key to daggers has always been and remains their skills which are the most effective dealer of conditions on any melee class. However, this is detractory from the fact that there is still less playable combinations with other classes.

Primal Rage disables all skill for its duration, Strength only triggers on attaqck skills, thus the maths here is completely flawed.

kryshnysh · Jul 05, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcobra

Now lets look at some numbers.

Without adding in skills, armor level 60 target, constant auto-attack damage, etc. Here are the numbers:

Quote:

+15% inherent, +20% customized damage factored in:

16 Dagger Mastery, 0 Critical Strikes: 1402 DPM, 23.4 DPS
16 Dagger Mastery, 13 Critical Strikes: 1549 DPM, 25.8 DPS
16 Axe Mastery: 1599.6 DPM, 26.66 DPS
16 Sword Mastery: 1536 DPM, 25.6 DPS
16 Hammer Mastery: 1761 DPM, 29.3 DPS

At 12 Dagger Mastery (0 crit strike) and Axe Mastery the figures are 18.1 and 21.7 DPS respectively, a significant difference as the Dagger Mastery changes the double strike rate. For the 12 attribute figures I also used guildwiki's 17.4% crit chance, while at 16 I used the 24% Ensign used for Why Nuking Sucks (the difference between 22.9% at guildwiki at 24% is approximately 0.2 dps on axe and dagger).

Personally, I've found that people who think the new classes are the total bomb just don't have enough experience to understand where they fit in the role of things. Ritualists and Assassins have good uses, but they aren't better than other professions hands down. This goes both ways though. They're balanced, it just so happens that Assassins and Ritualists aren't as well known amongst the community, and thus its taking quite a bit of time to flesh out their best roles and how well and where they fit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuo Can Do It!

What? Their primary skills have almost nothing to do with how versatile they are. The ritualist is one of the most versatile classes in GuildWars right now. There's a difference between a class being versatile and a class being compatible with other classes.

And how can you compare max dagger mastery hits to max strength hits PLUS an elite skill? It's not fair judgement. That's like saying one warrior can do more damage with a stance/shout than the other warrior. Of course they're going to do more damage!

I agree with these sentiments.

I'd also like to point out that you took the most versatile examples of the core professions. Divine Favor? Strength? Not particularly versatile primary attributes. Spawning Power blows these away by comparison (working on minions for instance).

floppinghog · Jul 05, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

when we got more chapters through, im sure we will see a much more blended team of professions. cause what can you do when you get all the original mixes? you get monks without healing line and everything else + something from like a ranger for defense type thing (inplace of smiting). ya know? different armor, looks, and feel to it, but it would still be viable to play and would complement some type of build.

you see? this game is so new still - theres gonna be alot to mess with soon. so many characters wooooooooot it will never get old for me :P

Cherno · Jul 05, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

The problem I am facing with my ritualist is it seems to be a case of "Jack of all trades, master of none" I think the rit is a bit too versatile. I don't care for the spawning powers as much because during normal battles, you move too quickly and your spirits mostly seem like a waste. You can use draw spirit, but I have found it a bit buggy at times. I would like to see a spirit window to be able to target and see health of your spirits better. I have yet to try out any rit elites however, and that may make a bit of difference.

I haven't played around with my assassin much but don't think I like him much, but that may just be because I haven't gotten into the skills yet.

They don't seem very condusive to most secondaries however. For the most part, just like with the core classes, I tend to just go Monk to start for reusable res and a bit of spot healing, and by the time you get to change secondaries, you have a better idea of cross class builds.

I prefer keeping my points into the primary profession lines when playing a new character to learn their individual strengths and weaknesses.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jul 05, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

I am not even going to get into this, but please no more class hate....

Zakarr · Jul 05, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Assassins are usually very good in PvP but they are not so good in PvE
Ritualists are not versatile in PvP but they are good in PvE

Ritualists have Spawning Power primary attribute. There is an elite skill which will open lots of possibilities to secondary caster professions and same time use your primary attribute. They are mainly for PvE but maybe someday someone will find them good at PvP too.

This is my point of view. Some of you are way more experienced in PvE and PvP so feel free to write your opinion.

Rent · Jul 05, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

but maybe someday someone will find them good at PvP too.

They already have. Ritual Lord/Soul Twisting makes them some of the best damage mitigation in the game, and that's not something to be overlooked.